skellington
Member
They probably had to compromise on the thermal envelope to fit the hardware into such a thin space (compared to SP2).
Surprisingly Bad Gaming Performance
- Thread starter ryot09
- Start date
Atomic Walrus
New Member
It seems to me that this design was probably intended for Broadwell, but with all the delays MS decided to launch it anyway. It clearly has far less thermal capacity than the SP1/2 design, and I have to think that when that compromise was suggested the other side of it was Broadwell's 30% power consumption/heat production drop balancing it out. I imagine a Broadwell chip of the same class would show sustained performance very close to the SP2 (close enough that it would feel like an acceptable trade for heavy users). The i7 model isn't likely to change things much -- it may actually be a bit more power efficient at the low end (better binned chip), but you aren't going to see any real sustained performance gains since the limits are thermal.
Personally I don't find the 0.24lbs worth the performance hit compared to the SP2. Thickness never concerned me one way or the other, though obviously getting thinner is a good part of how MS accomplished the weight drop (less metal). I'm not interested in using the device for gaming, but the software I run more or less has the same requirements (3D modeling, pretty aggressive use of Photoshop). I assumed Mike Krahulik (Gabe) was just confused by n-trig hover lag when we described lag in Photoshop, but it's now clear that the SP3 is going to be quite a bit slower in any moderate to heavy CPU+GPU situations. Considering the resolutions and number of layers he works with I'm not surprised that he ran into some throttling issues.
For the average user this is probably an acceptable trade (weight for sustained performance). My use case is a fringe situation, but the fact that the SP2 could actually match MBA performance while providing a built-in digitizer was the main selling point for me. The SP3 is no longer a device that interests me. I'll have to wait and see how this cooling solution works with a Broadwell chip.
I guess my real disappointment is that MS is trying to make the SP the mainstream user device to replace the RT line (which was a massive failure no matter what anyone in this forum might say about it). I was hoping they would maintain a split, with the SP continuing to be capable of heavy lifting while a "Surface" (non-pro) device worries about the thinner/lighter/less functionality market.
Personally I don't find the 0.24lbs worth the performance hit compared to the SP2. Thickness never concerned me one way or the other, though obviously getting thinner is a good part of how MS accomplished the weight drop (less metal). I'm not interested in using the device for gaming, but the software I run more or less has the same requirements (3D modeling, pretty aggressive use of Photoshop). I assumed Mike Krahulik (Gabe) was just confused by n-trig hover lag when we described lag in Photoshop, but it's now clear that the SP3 is going to be quite a bit slower in any moderate to heavy CPU+GPU situations. Considering the resolutions and number of layers he works with I'm not surprised that he ran into some throttling issues.
For the average user this is probably an acceptable trade (weight for sustained performance). My use case is a fringe situation, but the fact that the SP2 could actually match MBA performance while providing a built-in digitizer was the main selling point for me. The SP3 is no longer a device that interests me. I'll have to wait and see how this cooling solution works with a Broadwell chip.
I guess my real disappointment is that MS is trying to make the SP the mainstream user device to replace the RT line (which was a massive failure no matter what anyone in this forum might say about it). I was hoping they would maintain a split, with the SP continuing to be capable of heavy lifting while a "Surface" (non-pro) device worries about the thinner/lighter/less functionality market.
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I'm waiting for my i7, now this is my main concern. if it could not handle some heavy lift, I'll send it back. I know there is no fix when it easily hit 90 celsius degree, only bet is i7 would have some magic. a couple of months ago I almost bought fujitsu q704 but throttling stopped me, I was so disappointed at fujitsu at the time, now I know they were not worse than anyone else.
If your games have the option of capping their frame rate, it might benefit to set the max frame rate less than the absolute max you might otherwise get (before throttling)... when you execute on a 100% duty cycle like a normal simulation/game, it will go as fast as it can and the CPU will heat up to the point it throttles. It seems like the SP3 is not tuned very well for backing off of 90C, and drops performance quite a bit (perhaps more than needed if it wasn't allowed to get that hot to begin with). Changing settings to lower graphic levels probably just increases frame rate, so it still runs the CPU at 100% (and thermally throttles).
IlbeRevolution
New Member
I've been testing different games on the new SP3, and I think there's something wrong with the power plan.
I've been getting 30-40FPS on LoL without mannually touching with the power settings and performance settings, but with a little tweak, I was able to push it up to 50-60fps (which is ~5 fps less than the SP2).
Similar results on Starcraft II. I'm getting about 50-60fps which is similar in terms of perforamance to the SP2. (All games ran at 720p with screen res reduced, everything low except for textures).
But when you do so, you'll have to enable the Hyper-V settings and fiddle around with performance settings, which might not be perfectly safe. Sleep function is lost, and there were some wifi issues. I also noticed even with the fans running at max RPM, the average temperature rose to uncomfortable temps (~92-93'c+) which can damage other internal circuitries.
For those seeing ridiculous drop in performance compared to the SP2, you might want to turn on Hyper-V and fiddle with performance settings.
I've been getting 30-40FPS on LoL without mannually touching with the power settings and performance settings, but with a little tweak, I was able to push it up to 50-60fps (which is ~5 fps less than the SP2).
Similar results on Starcraft II. I'm getting about 50-60fps which is similar in terms of perforamance to the SP2. (All games ran at 720p with screen res reduced, everything low except for textures).
But when you do so, you'll have to enable the Hyper-V settings and fiddle around with performance settings, which might not be perfectly safe. Sleep function is lost, and there were some wifi issues. I also noticed even with the fans running at max RPM, the average temperature rose to uncomfortable temps (~92-93'c+) which can damage other internal circuitries.
For those seeing ridiculous drop in performance compared to the SP2, you might want to turn on Hyper-V and fiddle with performance settings.
Midlife Crysis
New Member
The Anand review says ". . . I don't know if the device changes its thermal profile at all when docked, but in tablet or laptop mode it's definitely going to throttle quicker than Surface Pro 2 did. I must stress that I don't think this is necessarily a bad idea. Surface Pro 3 improves usability over Surface Pro 2 by leaps and bounds, and it's still faster under load than the original Surface Pro. All of this comes at the expense of reduced sustained performance. As you'll see from the rest of our tests, peak performance did get better over last year's model."
I'm on the brink of upgradingto SP3 from SP1 and think that I'll still do it Anand's assessment is true w/r/t gaming performance. I only plan to use the SP3 for light/limited gaming when travelling but am much less interested in the device if's worse than what I already have as a back-up light gaming machine. Anyone here have any idea how SP3 and SP1 compare for this purpose? Also if anyone has any more real world SP3 benchmarks to share I'd be really interested in seeing them. Not much out there in reviews or on the Intertubes, exept for that one Youtube vid that confirms that trying to run high end games at SP3's native resolution doesn't work well (duh
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I'm on the brink of upgradingto SP3 from SP1 and think that I'll still do it Anand's assessment is true w/r/t gaming performance. I only plan to use the SP3 for light/limited gaming when travelling but am much less interested in the device if's worse than what I already have as a back-up light gaming machine. Anyone here have any idea how SP3 and SP1 compare for this purpose? Also if anyone has any more real world SP3 benchmarks to share I'd be really interested in seeing them. Not much out there in reviews or on the Intertubes, exept for that one Youtube vid that confirms that trying to run high end games at SP3's native resolution doesn't work well (duh
)douglasfurs
Member
I have a Surface Pro 3, 8GB i5 model and I installed Half Life 2 and Dear Esther both from steam.
I ran Dear Esther at Medium to High settings just to see if my surface would crap out but it handled it perfectly fine! I can't say that I was getting 60fps or anything of the sort since I wasn't running anything to give me those stats but I know for a fact I wasn't falling below 30.
I ran HL2 at full settings and full resolution and it ran just fine for me. Didn't have any issues at all.
I just finished Need For Speed Underground 2, ran it at full settings, everything cranked and it ran perfectly fine. My SP3 didn't even get that hot.
The only time my SP3 got kind of hot was when it ran updates and stuff on the original set-up.
I saw some convo on another thread about being able to crank the power settings to high. I might try this when I get home. Would this cause any damage to the machine itself or would battery life be the only thing that is effected from cranking the power settings within the cnfg?
I ran Dear Esther at Medium to High settings just to see if my surface would crap out but it handled it perfectly fine! I can't say that I was getting 60fps or anything of the sort since I wasn't running anything to give me those stats but I know for a fact I wasn't falling below 30.
I ran HL2 at full settings and full resolution and it ran just fine for me. Didn't have any issues at all.
I just finished Need For Speed Underground 2, ran it at full settings, everything cranked and it ran perfectly fine. My SP3 didn't even get that hot.
The only time my SP3 got kind of hot was when it ran updates and stuff on the original set-up.
I saw some convo on another thread about being able to crank the power settings to high. I might try this when I get home. Would this cause any damage to the machine itself or would battery life be the only thing that is effected from cranking the power settings within the cnfg?
I'm on the brink of upgradingto SP3 from SP1 and think that I'll still do it Anand's assessment is true w/r/t gaming performance. I only plan to use the SP3 for light/limited gaming when travelling but am much less interested in the device if's worse than what I already have as a back-up light gaming machine. Anyone here have any idea how SP3 and SP1 compare for this purpose? Also if anyone has any more real world SP3 benchmarks to share I'd be really interested in seeing them. Not much out there in reviews or on the Intertubes, exept for that one Youtube vid that confirms that trying to run high end games at SP3's native resolution doesn't work well (duh
My honest suggestion would be to get the SP2 at the reduced price. It is fairly mature now and most of the bugs have been addressed. Assuming you get a good "copy" I think it is a better value than the SP3. Unless, you are invested in the new form factor, there just doesn't seem to be a compelling reason to go with the SP3. Perhaps, the SP3 will be worth revisiting after Broadwell.
Either way, if you have any hardware problems after the initial exchange period (and don't live near an MS store), don't expect any support other than the refurbished exchange merry-go-round.
Midlife Crysis
New Member
Thanks. The form factor benefits do appeal to me and I won't game on it much so I'm still interested in SP3 if it can at least match my SP1 as a back-up/complemenatary gaming device. Although you're probably right that waiting for Broadwell would be wiser. (I will certainly be kicking myself if MS produces a 4g capable, Broadwell version six months from now )
BTW -- for those who are interested there's a lengthy discussion ofSP3 thermal throttling issues here. To all those waiting for an SP3 with i7 for HD5000 and gaming you may be dissapointed.
)BTW -- for those who are interested there's a lengthy discussion ofSP3 thermal throttling issues here. To all those waiting for an SP3 with i7 for HD5000 and gaming you may be dissapointed.
Seneleron
Active Member
Broadwell-m, you mean.
I"m not sure why people keep thinking theyr'e going to get desktop broadwell when mobile broadwell-m is being designed for applications like this. They also seem to think that they're going to get a 30% performance improvement because the DESKTOP components stack that way.
If I'm wrong, that's awesome. When I'm right, y'all are gonna be disappointed at the 20% performance hit the SP4 takes.
I"m not sure why people keep thinking theyr'e going to get desktop broadwell when mobile broadwell-m is being designed for applications like this. They also seem to think that they're going to get a 30% performance improvement because the DESKTOP components stack that way.
If I'm wrong, that's awesome. When I'm right, y'all are gonna be disappointed at the 20% performance hit the SP4 takes.
I'm having a difficult time figuring out if there's a problem with my SP3 (i5/256GB/8MB) or I'm experiencing what everyone else is experiencing.
I installed FTL - NOT a graphics intense game - from Steam. I ran it full screen at native resolution. Within 3 minutes the fan wound up and the back of the device was very hot. I am coming from an SP1 where the fan wasn't noticeable. During the initial Firmware upgrade last weekend and other set-up tasks (e.g. OneDrive sync), the fan wound up. It was also loud when I was listening to the World Cup match yesterday, streaming audio and live comments. Fan was pretty loud.
Anyone else try FTL?
I installed FTL - NOT a graphics intense game - from Steam. I ran it full screen at native resolution. Within 3 minutes the fan wound up and the back of the device was very hot. I am coming from an SP1 where the fan wasn't noticeable. During the initial Firmware upgrade last weekend and other set-up tasks (e.g. OneDrive sync), the fan wound up. It was also loud when I was listening to the World Cup match yesterday, streaming audio and live comments. Fan was pretty loud.
Anyone else try FTL?
