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I kind of regret my Surface Pro 2 purchase & putting faith into Microsoft

Those issues ARE on a "few" special cases. If every of the many thousands (if not hundred-thousands) exemplars of this device would all have severe issues there would be far more complain.
Not to mention really serious issues like killing the device entirely, etc. That happened to very few.
Surely MS has also tested the update, on very few and little circumstances probably, but they did.



Yes and it still boots very fast and you can start a dozen programs within seconds.
Don't forget, this is a windows PC.. a full fledged PC.
How did you live before there were Windows Tablets?
I think in the cases where you really depend on instant-starts, a PC-like device is simply not the right thing to use. Which ones are the cases where you need that?
Don't tell me you are wandering all the day through dozen places and need at any of those places more than two programms or documents at once..
Why wouldn't an iPad or some Android work?


Well, then you can't really bash on MS because of the squeaking screen since that was a follow-up problem because of the initial problem.. Be happy that it didn't burn.. :/


I highly doubt those issues will noticably damage the perception of the product, especially now since that firmware update isn't up anymore, meaning anyone who buys the device now, doesn't has to fear this update.
Do you have any proof that MS exchanged the members who work on the Surface?


Whether this is something "unacceptable" is doubtworthy too if you ask me... it is how it is. An extremely complex thing like a PC in tablet format, especially one about the most powerful on the market, just can't be perfect from start... iCore Tablet PCs are still something new where you cannot relay on dozen of years of developement.

If "premium devices" as you call them, really were without issues, there wouldn't be technical aid forums for Macs either and Companies wouldn't have to test their devices throughly before adapting to new ones, like ChemCat described.
There's no perfection.

At least the Surface Pro 2 never crashed on me or failed. That's still better than quite all the desktops I had in past, except the actual one.


EDIT: BTW. because of the wacom inaccuray again: Did you ever have another Wacom-enabled laptop/device with a screen in your hands?
Even Lenovo's high-end Business line which easily almost costs double the Surface Pro 2 has inaccuray around the borders and corners. The reason is mainly of technical nature... The nonactual line which many companies still use - my college for example - is even clearly worse than the SP 2 is. And still those were surely called "premium devices"...
Preventing this inaccuray would require a very large bezel like on Wacom's CintiQ.
A few special cases does not warrant Microsoft pulling the firmware for THE ENTIRE SURFACE USERBASE! This is very wide-spread, every tech support person I spoke to (5 so far) at Microsoft has familiarity with all of my issues. The hold time to get Surface support (before X-mas) was nearly 3 hours!

This is a full PC, we know...but it is in the ultrabook\tablet form factor which like an iPad or phone, must be able to resume from a near off state almost instantly. Thats even in the ultrabook spec released by Intel years ago that gave birth to, of all things, the MacBook Air, Asus Transformer and Surface Pro.

"Be happy it didn't burn" ---you cant be serious!? I cant knock Microsoft? Who do I knock then? The bag company maybe for making computer bags or myself for expecting my SP2 to stay asleep in transit?

All in all, we have come here to express our dissatisfaction and perhaps elicit technical knowledge that may help us correct MS oversights NOT to be lectured that we're fanboys, whiners, non professionals, about our work scenarios or what I (20+ years in IT, currently Director of Infrastructure for a very large multinational company) expect out of a $1500 PC.
 
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godson594

Active Member
So, are you saying getting rid of your proven work tools and move over completely to unproven ones at the same time is a good idea? Boy are you in for a surprise in life if you think this is the right attitude for your professional career.

A couple weeks ago, someone posted here about their school buying 50 surface rt's before realizing they can't run Silverlight. I suppose you think this was a good idea also, not testing it out first before buying 50 units?
I don't know why you are beating me up over this. The problems that are unforgivable have happened past my return date. I wasn't going to hang onto my macbook for 6 months anticipating my surface was going to start falling apart. This surface has gradually gotten worse! If it was this bad out of box guess what? It would have went back and I would have got my money and waited for something else. Btw I had the macbook sitting here for 2-3 weeks while I had this surface. Read my original post.. I worked past and found work around for every issue I encountered, the squeaky screen is something I can't fix on my own.... When that happened I was like wtf?!? I have had more issues with this device compared to anything I have owned. Other windows laptops, android tablets, MacBooks and iPads. I hate to defend myself when someone outright calls me a fanboy but I have tried everything...
 
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godson594

Active Member
Wow!!! This was the most helpful and insightful post I've seen on the internet.... oh wait never mind this was just the normal jab we see everyday, carry on.....

Chem Cat is professional who has adapted the right tool to accomplish real world automated work, using technology to solve real problems. I would suggest that you become familiar with a community and its membership before making troll worthy comments, as we do not suffer a troll to live for long around these parts.
This is the problem with forums... Someone who posts a lot will get away with rude comments. The second someone new defends themselves they are told to respect this person. This is crazy, I thought maybe Chemcat was having a bad day when she replied to me originally, then I looked at post history... 80% of her threads she mentions she is an engineer / professional. All same tone... Whatever I don't expect anyone else to sympathize with me because of all the problems. If this was a forum with a rule of "only praise Microsoft" I wouldn't have posted. You "consumers" need to start holding these giants to better standards.

P.s. I work in engineering in Consumer Electronics... I don't need to shove that down your throats every other post tho. So ya forgive me for being upset that this device aimed at professionals has many problems...

The Wacom accuracy is an issue all over. Not just the edges "I never mentioned edges".... And your right it's okay for normal tapping around, but again this device isn't aimed at the ipad/surface rt demographic. So again I'm not cool with its performance but I wasn't going to return it based on that being Wacom acknowledged the problem and are working on a solution... "So it's not just me being picky"
 

DragonGamer

New Member
You "consumers" need to start holding these giants to better standards.
And what then? Shall we just not buy the MS Tablet although we need something like that?
Tell me an alternative to the Surface Pro 2 which has no downsides compared to it. I looked for months even before the SP 2 was on the market and found nothing at a comparable price.

Sometimes you just have to adapt. Or like you said, force on a replacement as long as that works. After all MS provides a year of guarantee, but you also have to give them time. No company keeps devices in stock only for replacements if they could sell them...

Anyways, in my opinion, what you say here is not justifying a warning for the average user (no matter whether consumer or business user).
That you aren't happy with it, doesn't have to mean many others cannot be happy :)
 

ChemCat

New Member
Apologies.

I guess I do mention it a lot. I'll watch myself from now on. I'm just tired of bloggers speaking authoritatively on electronic reviews. And it usually is something like the iPad is the best thing ever.

I started telling bloggers what I do because real world application of tech gadgets is almost never like what tech reviewers and bloggers say.

Is there anyway you can return the surface and get another MacBook?
 

jnjroach

Administrator
Staff member
I don't know why you are beating me up over this. The problems that are unforgivable have happened past my return date. I wasn't going to hang onto my macbook for 6 months anticipating my surface was going to start falling apart. This surface has gradually gotten worse! If it was this bad out of box guess what? It would have went back and I would have got my money and waited for something else. Btw I had the macbook sitting here for 2-3 weeks while I had this surface. Read my original post.. I worked past and found work around for every issue I encountered, the squeaky screen is something I can't fix on my own.... When that happened I was like wtf?!? I have had more issues with this device compared to anything I have owned. Other windows laptops, android tablets, MacBooks and iPads. I hate to defend myself when someone outright calls me a fanboy but I have tried everything...
We acknowledge you may have received a poorly constructed device, and yes Microsoft pulled the Firmware, but it is a fact that it only impacted a small subset of devices and those impacted ranged from an inconvenience to catastrophic. So unlike most tech companies, MS pulled the update to investigate knowing that many Pro 2 devices would be opened and updated during the Holidays. Of course MS Tech Support heard about the issue, the was a support Bulletin issued to everyone of them.

The issue with the Firmware is on any x86 based machine there can be millions of combinations of configurations and it is impossible to test all of them, so when a wide spread issue happens like this you pull the update and you escalate it into problem management to do a root cause analysis and determine commonality in the Telemetry Data.

We don't have issues with negative comments, but rants get old and yes the forums are full of those who were impacted because outside of enthusiasts the vast majority of people who post on a forum have a gripe or a problem and typically post one or two comments and then leave.
 
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godson594

Active Member
And what then? Shall we just not buy the MS Tablet although we need something like that?
Tell me an alternative to the Surface Pro 2 which has no downsides compared to it. I looked for months even before the SP 2 was on the market and found nothing at a comparable price.

Sometimes you just have to adapt. Or like you said, force on a replacement as long as that works. After all MS provides a year of guarantee, but you also have to give them time. No company keeps devices in stock only for replacements if they could sell them...

Anyways, in my opinion, what you say here is not justifying a warning for the average user (no matter whether consumer or business user).
That you aren't happy with it, doesn't have to mean many others cannot be happy :)
Your telling me that because there isn't anything else like the surface that we shouldn't complain and give heads up to potential buyers?

You are insane ;) I love the surface concept, it's close to being a perfect device. But with all the problems I have seen I can't sit here and act like I'm happy.

Screen flicker bug has been around since surface pro 1 apparently. (No excuse this isn't fixed)
Wacom acknowledge they are working on driver fix for accuracy (known issue at least they acknowledged)
Microsoft released a Major firmware update that had to be pulled!!! (You can't be okay with that)
Apple keeps stock for replacements even though they sell out on new releases (makes sense to me, not you?)
And to my last point, I can't just replace it because Microsoft doesn't work this way. You think I feel good calling them and they told me they "have no idea" how long it would take to fix and return mine? Sorry but I have no confidence in them right now...

I'm glad your device is working flawless. But there are more and more people that are having the screen issue where it feels loose. That my friend is scary...
 
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godson594

Active Member
The issue with the Firmware is on any x86 based machine there can be millions of combinations of configurations and it is impossible to test all of them, so when a wide spread issue happens like this you pull the update and you escalate it into problem management to do a root cause analysis and determine commonality in the Telemetry Data.

We don't have issues with negative comments, but rants get old and yes the forums are full of those who were impacted because outside of enthusiasts the vast majority of people who post on a forum have a gripe or a problem and typically post one or two comments and then leave.
Normally I would agree here. But this is a device with the same identical hardware across the board and they botched a major firmware update.. Again I understand shit happens but they are a huge company with a ton of qa resources, it's mind boggling this slipped by.

I came here as an enthusiast. I didn't join the forums to complain. I can't tell you how excited I was to finally own a Surface pro 2, I hate being this let down. I defended this product in every meeting against coworkers who sat there with MacBooks that would ask me "why the heck would you buy a Surface?" -
 

DragonGamer

New Member
Your telling me that because there isn't anything else like the surface that we shouldn't complain and give heads up to potential buyers?

You are insane ;) I love the surface concept, it's close to being a perfect device. But with all the problems I have seen I can't sit here and act like I'm happy.
Uhm okey, then you can call me insane.. but then I call you weird then because you would buy a device which doesn't exactly suit your needs although there is a device which would suit those. :p
Anyways, since you were able to switch from a macbook air - a Mac-Ultrabook to a windows convertible which is more a tablet than a laptop/ultrabook (Ultrabook-convertibels are more likely devices like the Yoga series) then you definitely don't need something like a Surface Pro. Why didn't you switch to a normal Ultrabook?

Screen flicker bug has been around since surface pro 1 apparently. (No excuse this isn't fixed)
Yes it's a weird issue but which also doesn't seem to be consistent.. there should be some reasons why its so hard to fix...

Wacom acknowledge they are working on driver fix for accuracy (known issue at least they acknowledged)
There are also technical reasons which make accuray very very hard. Unlike on a normal drawing tablet, the Surface pro has high-frequency chips right below the Wacom layer. You can't really blame anyone, if you ask me.

Microsoft released a Major firmware update that had to be pulled!!! (You can't be okay with that)
Maybe I've msised something.. but where exactly is the issue when an update is being pulled? o_O
Cars are also being pulled back in mass when there are found potentially critical issues.
jnjroach described very well why it was the best choice to pull that update.

Apple keeps stock for replacements even though they sell out on new releases (makes sense to me, not you?)
Makes sense yes.. but they also produce quite far larger quantities...
MS obviously wasn't able to produce that quantity so it was just a business decision to sell all devices to profit the best from Christmas shopping.

And to my last point, I can't just replace it because Microsoft doesn't work this way. You think I feel good calling them and they told me they "have no idea" how long it would take to fix and return mine? Sorry but I have no confidence in them right now...
Yes that's problematic.. but here we come again to the point of little luck.. :/

I'm glad your device is working flawless. But there are more and more people that are having the screen issue where it feels loose. That my friend is scary...
Where did you read that? o:
But well, yes, that is sort of scary but there surely could be worse things...
 

ChemCat

New Member
Isn't it possible an apple device is what you need right now?

Like someone else said, we don't really have a problem with gripes. In the last week, I've started a thread with he word "gripe" in it. And it was for my gripes on metro API's.

I just think it's silly to get rid of a proven device(s) to get an unproven one. I don't trust anyone. Not MS, not apple, not HP, anyone. I'll get rid of my proven work device once the new one has proven itself.
 
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godson594

Active Member
Uhm okey, then you can call me insane.. but then I call you weird then because you would buy a device which doesn't exactly suit your needs although there is a device which would suit those. :p
Anyways, since you were able to switch from a macbook air - a Mac-Ultrabook to a windows convertible which is more a tablet than a laptop/ultrabook (Ultrabook-convertibels are more likely devices like the Yoga series) then you definitely don't need something like a Surface Pro. Why didn't you switch to a normal Ultrabook?

I was just messin with you on the insane part - I wanted a digitizer to replace my USB Wacom device. This alone is what started the whole process of changing devices...

Yes it's a weird issue but which also doesn't seem to be consistent.. there should be some reasons why its so hard to fix...

It's not weird. I think the problem is that not everyones eyes are as sensitive. My girlfriend couldn't see the issue but it bugged me within 1 minute of using the device. It's like fluorescent light flicker - Not everyone can see it but it some offices they ban them because it gives other people migraines. This is the first tablet/laptop I have ever used in my life that has this problem. Again not a hard fix it's Intel's adaptive brightness feature that has the bug.
There are also technical reasons which make accuray very very hard. Unlike on a normal drawing tablet, the Surface pro has high-frequency chips right below the Wacom layer. You can't really blame anyone, if you ask me.

Why are you making excuses for them? If they can't make a digitizer accurate on a device aimed at the pro world then they should work on a re-design. It sounds like it is a driver issue so I can't agree with the high-frequency chipset claim.
Maybe I've msised something.. but where exactly is the issue when an update is being pulled? o_O
Cars are also being pulled back in mass when there are found potentially critical issues.
jnjroach described very well why it was the best choice to pull that update.

No issue with pulling it. Issue is with something like this slipping out in first place. Second issue is it's still not fixed yet. Microsoft is a HUGE company with unlimited resources. I would be more forgiving if this was a start-up.
Makes sense yes.. but they also produce quite far larger quantities...
MS obviously wasn't able to produce that quantity so it was just a business decision to sell all devices to profit the best from Christmas shopping.

Bad product management

Yes that's problematic.. but here we come again to the point of little luck.. :/



Where did you read that? o:
But well, yes, that is sort of scary but there surely could be worse things...
Things could always be worse.
 
We acknowledge you may have received a poorly constructed device, and yes Microsoft pulled the Firmware, but it is a fact that it only impacted a small subset of devices and those impacted ranged from an inconvenience to catastrophic. So unlike most tech companies, MS pulled the update to investigate knowing that many Pro 2 devices would be opened and updated during the Holidays. Of course MS Tech Support heard about the issue, the was a support Bulletin issued to everyone of them.

The issue with the Firmware is on any x86 based machine there can be millions of combinations of configurations and it is impossible to test all of them, so when a wide spread issue happens like this you pull the update and you escalate it into problem management to do a root cause analysis and determine commonality in the Telemetry Data.

We don't have issues with negative comments, but rants get old and yes the forums are full of those who were impacted because outside of enthusiasts the vast majority of people who post on a forum have a gripe or a problem and typically post one or two comments and then leave.
Stock x86 Surface Pro 2 256 = ummmmm, exactly one combination. Jnj, chem and dragon please search for the keywords "surface, works, love it, no issues, APIs, the fix is get a mac, career/life coach needed" and respond there, clearly your comments are not needed on this thread about 2 individuals trying to make the best out of their investment and ask the learned Surface community for technical help.
 
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