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Is Microsoft Going to Axe the Surface RT?

oion

Well-Known Member
I certainly hope rt isn't going away any time soon. I just convinced some higher up's in my company that rt is good for on-the-go business.

RT plus whatever merger is going to be fine.

Just looking at the Guardian article, you can see it's fraught with incompetent writing and poor critical thinking, basically just making news out of speculation. How anyone can take it seriously is beyond me--it's appropriate only as an amateur blog opinion piece, similar to mine, really. The lynchpin quote by Larson-Green is the whole "We're not going to have three." But that doesn't actually say anything when you think about it.

Look closely: The interview quotes the Guardian author uses as "evidence" are from third party people, especially from OEM counterparts who were pissed at MS for going into hardware with the Surface RT in the first place last year. Why would they want Windows RT to succeed? Of course they would want a self-fulfilling prophecy of failure as punishment, because they can say "We told you so." Windows 8, on the other hand, is a discrete product that is still firmly entrenched in multiple corporate products and isn't tethered to MS' Surface product the way Windows RT is to the Surface RT, which was Microsoft's first release--it was Jeff here who said, based on his conversations with MS at the launch, that the Surface RT line with WinRT actually represents the pure Windows experience of the future. I suppose I can see that.

Don't worry about it. With the software OS merge, it's an evolution, not abandonment. Jeff's conversations with MS are a lot more trustworthy in terms of Microsoft's intent to evolve away from the desktop MDI model, though I personally would stick to whatever "Pro" version if MS decides to leave MDI design to corporate/professional-level products.
 
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macmee

macmee

Active Member
Not considering this article though, if you get down to brass tax doesn't it make sense for RT to die? Due to RT not being x86 and due to Microsoft being a stiffer in terms of restricting what software can run on the OS, it seems highly likely to me that inexpensive atom powered x86 Windows tablets will replace the need for RT tablets. Atom tablets will/are competitively priced compared to RT, and you have the major benefit of being able to run legacy applications.

Don't get me wrong, after owning the Surface Pro, I know I would enjoy the Surface too based on the great build quality Microsoft has going here, but paralleled to this, I know that Intel still regrets turning down Apple's proposal to use Intel chips in the original iPhone, and so I hardly think Intel is going to role over and die when it comes to Windows devices now. I think the Atom poses a huge threat to RT and ARM in general and I think it will be interesting to see what happens over the next few years here. It may be premature to speculate, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Surface 3 sported an Atom.

RT plus whatever merger is going to be fine.

Just looking at the Guardian article, you can see it's fraught with incompetent writing and poor critical thinking, basically just making news out of speculation. How anyone can take it seriously is beyond me--it's appropriate only as an amateur blog opinion piece, similar to mine, really. The lynchpin quote by Larson-Green is the whole "We're not going to have three." But that doesn't actually say anything when you think about it.

Look closely: The interview quotes the Guardian author uses as "evidence" are from third party people, especially from OEM counterparts who were pissed at MS for going into hardware with the Surface RT in the first place last year. Why would they want Windows RT to succeed? Of course they would want a self-fulfilling prophecy of failure as punishment, because they can say "We told you so." Windows 8, on the other hand, is a discrete product that is still firmly entrenched in multiple corporate products and isn't tethered to MS' Surface product the way Windows RT is to the Surface RT, which was Microsoft's first release--it was Jeff here who said, based on his conversations with MS at the launch, that the Surface RT line with WinRT actually represents the pure Windows experience of the future. I suppose I can see that.

Don't worry about it. With the software OS merge, it's an evolution, not abandonment. Jeff's conversations with MS are a lot more trustworthy in terms of Microsoft's intent to evolve away from the desktop MDI model, though I personally would stick to whatever "Pro" version if MS decides to leave MDI design to corporate/professional-level products.
 

ctitanic

Well-Known Member
Those that have used any type of Atom know that you always end unsatisfied. Atom is the illusion of having the whole library of legacy software and the reality of being able to use only part of it because the processor lack of resources.

In the case of Windows RT what really make sense is a unified OS for Tablet and Phone. A formula already proven to be a success. If you want to call the evolution of RT, the killing of RT, go ahead. But do not twist the whole thing to cause panic within the potential new owners, and that's what's all a out. Press is the biggest Apple fan. It's a cult within the cult.
 

kristalsoldier

Well-Known Member
Not considering this article though, if you get down to brass tax doesn't it make sense for RT to die? Due to RT not being x86 and due to Microsoft being a stiffer in terms of restricting what software can run on the OS, it seems highly likely to me that inexpensive atom powered x86 Windows tablets will replace the need for RT tablets. Atom tablets will/are competitively priced compared to RT, and you have the major benefit of being able to run legacy applications.

Don't get me wrong, after owning the Surface Pro, I know I would enjoy the Surface too based on the great build quality Microsoft has going here, but paralleled to this, I know that Intel still regrets turning down Apple's proposal to use Intel chips in the original iPhone, and so I hardly think Intel is going to role over and die when it comes to Windows devices now. I think the Atom poses a huge threat to RT and ARM in general and I think it will be interesting to see what happens over the next few years here. It may be premature to speculate, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Surface 3 sported an Atom.

I think you may be missing the point. Even if we assume that the strength of the Atom chip is the ability to run legacy apps, I think what MS is trying to convey is that the future of computing in and for the consumer space is a devoid of the world of legacy apps which is where RT OS and ARM makes the most sense. To have an Atom-driven device would be to perpetuate the legacy world. Now, this presumes that MS's app world would be able to replace legacy apps. This is not yet the case and much needs to be done by MS to fill in the gaps. And, in this context, the biggest move would probably be Office Gemini (slated for release sometime next year).

In sum, this talk of legacy programs (or apps as we now like to call them) is symptomatic of a nostalgia that wants newer and different form factors to perform types of tasks that we have traditionally been used to using traditional designs of software. Thus you get folks going on about 'how things should be', which is essentially just a different way of saying 'how things were'. RT/ARM breaks with that tradition, which rankles - for as much as we think of ourselves as being progressive and forward-thinking, we are essentially creatures of habit and change/ transformations make us distinctly uncomfortable. This, to a large part, I think, contributes to the harsh reviews that RT and the Surface have drawn ever since their Version 1 release.

It is also because of the above that I feel - and this is probably evident from my posts on this subject - that the Surface RT/2 is the more revolutionary of the devices as compared to the Surface Pro and/ or the Atom devices.
 

jnjroach

Administrator
Staff member
To heap onto this, the Dell Venue 8 Pro is a hit, full Windows 8.1 for as low as $229, as a moderator over at http://forums.TabletPCReview.com the Dell Venue Pro thread is one of our largest, but people are already struggling with Power Management, lack of space, etc.. Legacy Apps are killing the Windows 8.1 Tablet Experience as they are not S0iX aware. They're fine on a non Connected Standby machine but on a S0iX machine the backwards compatibility must die.
 

ChemCat

New Member
Anyone who has ever tried to work with touch in the desktop environment knows that the desktop environment with the windows form factor is frustrating to the touch. All this fear mongering of MS nazis taking away people's mice and keyboards are nonsense. I firmly believe that touch will be incorporated with the computing UI much like how the mouse was incorporated sided by side with the keyboard instead of replacing it.

I do not want rt to go away. In fact, I absolutely love it that MS has created a walled garden. Less malware for us to worry about.

I speak as a former linux modder and hacker. Back then, I was all about open source, put things in the wild and see what happens. I started modding linux since installing linux involved manually typing in every sudo command imaginable instead of having an automated process. That was the younger me. The more mature me now say a walled garden would have saved me a lot of headaches back then.
 

jnjroach

Administrator
Staff member
Anyone who has ever tried to work with touch in the desktop environment knows that the desktop environment with the windows form factor is frustrating to the touch. All this fear mongering of MS nazis taking away people's mice and keyboards are nonsense. I firmly believe that touch will be incorporated with the computing UI much like how the mouse was incorporated sided by side with the keyboard instead of replacing it.

I do not want rt to go away. In fact, I absolutely love it that MS has created a walled garden. Less malware for us to worry about.

I speak as a former linux modder and hacker. Back then, I was all about open source, put things in the wild and see what happens. I started modding linux since installing linux involved manually typing in every sudo command imaginable instead of having an automated process. That was the younger me. The more mature me now say a walled garden would have saved me a lot of headaches back then.

Careful Richard Stallman and Mad Dog will hunt you down and perform a CHOWN command on your butt!!!! ;)
 

oion

Well-Known Member
Not considering this article though, if you get down to brass tax doesn't it make sense for RT to die? Due to RT not being x86 and due to Microsoft being a stiffer in terms of restricting what software can run on the OS, it seems highly likely to me that inexpensive atom powered x86 Windows tablets will replace the need for RT tablets. Atom tablets will/are competitively priced compared to RT, and you have the major benefit of being able to run legacy applications.

Don't get me wrong, after owning the Surface Pro, I know I would enjoy the Surface too based on the great build quality Microsoft has going here, but paralleled to this, I know that Intel still regrets turning down Apple's proposal to use Intel chips in the original iPhone, and so I hardly think Intel is going to role over and die when it comes to Windows devices now. I think the Atom poses a huge threat to RT and ARM in general and I think it will be interesting to see what happens over the next few years here. It may be premature to speculate, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Surface 3 sported an Atom.

Hm, yes, you're missing the point. You should read my analysis of the Surface and RT. :p The Guardian blog speculation you quoted is no more authoritative than mine (and others here).

Like the others have said, Microsoft is evolving Windows down a path that's actually mobile friendly because they see the death of desktop. That also means dragging the "legacy" (dictionary: adj. "of, relating to, or being a previous or outdated computer system") application developers along, kicking and screaming. Legacy applications are not for tablets, which is where consumer electronics is going. That said, I don't see certain industries like PC gaming going along with this due to hardware requirements that are the polar opposite of mobile physics, but who knows what breakthroughs will happen in 10-20 years.

Windows RT is actually the purest mobile Windows experience available due to the requirements for Metro-standardized apps in relation to power management, security, and touch design. Once Winphone is merged with it, we should be able to get all the Winphone8 apps and probably optional LTE support with Nokia. It'll be interesting.

Since we're just speculating, I highly doubt Microsoft will go for an Intel-class chip in the Surface RT line because that would open the exact can of worms they're seeking to avoid--allowing legacy non-mobile desktop applications to drag down the consumer mobile experience. Just as jnjroach says.

(But goddamn, I wish AMD would have gotten their butts into gear a lot faster for the mobile space. More innovation and competition on all fronts, please.)
 
Those that have used any type of Atom know that you always end unsatisfied. Atom is the illusion of having the whole library of legacy software and the reality of being able to use only part of it because the processor lack of resources.

In the case of Windows RT what really make sense is a unified OS for Tablet and Phone. A formula already proven to be a success. If you want to call the evolution of RT, the killing of RT, go ahead. But do not twist the whole thing to cause panic within the potential new owners, and that's what's all a out. Press is the biggest Apple fan. It's a cult within the cult.
I believe that the timing of this article (and others like it) was a mild attempt to dampen interest in the Black Friday deals for the RT. If that was indeed the intention, it didn't succeed. Over 18,000 RTs sold on ebay. And from the people I've spoken with on the ground, every retail store that had Black Friday door buster pricing on the RT sold every unit they had. There was a lot of buzz about it... if my predictions continue to be true, there'll be even more buzz and interest in the coming weeks.

Yes, unifying the phone and tablet OSes makes a lot of sense and will probably be what happens. I hope that Microsoft does it in a way that doesn't end up orphaning the Surface RT, like they did to Windows Phones when they went from WP7 to WP8.
 

ctitanic

Well-Known Member
I believe that the timing of this article (and others like it) was a mild attempt to dampen interest in the Black Friday deals for the RT. If that was indeed the intention, it didn't succeed. Over 18,000 RTs sold on ebay. And from the people I've spoken with on the ground, every retail store that had Black Friday door buster pricing on the RT sold every unit they had. There was a lot of buzz about it... if my predictions continue to be true, there'll be even more buzz and interest in the coming weeks.

Yes, unifying the phone and tablet OSes makes a lot of sense and will probably be what happens. I hope that Microsoft does it in a way that doesn't end up orphaning the Surface RT, like they did to Windows Phones when they went from WP7 to WP8.

As far as I know from rumors and other sources, the join between the two should be ready in July 2014, when Windows Phone 8.1 is released. All I'm expecting to see is Windows update in our end. For developers, the phone and rt store accounts have been unified already.
 

oion

Well-Known Member
I believe that the timing of this article (and others like it) was a mild attempt to dampen interest in the Black Friday deals for the RT. If that was indeed the intention, it didn't succeed. Over 18,000 RTs sold on ebay. And from the people I've spoken with on the ground, every retail store that had Black Friday door buster pricing on the RT sold every unit they had. There was a lot of buzz about it... if my predictions continue to be true, there'll be even more buzz and interest in the coming weeks.

Yes, unifying the phone and tablet OSes makes a lot of sense and will probably be what happens. I hope that Microsoft does it in a way that doesn't end up orphaning the Surface RT, like they did to Windows Phones when they went from WP7 to WP8.

If that's true (killing interest), then the journalists/pundits would be actually admitting they're somewhat threatened by the Surface succeeding on any level.

Sometimes I wonder if the so-called pundits/journalists are patting themselves on the back for creating the incongruous bad press against S1/WinRT (incongruous because the majority of users actually like it) and helping to kill public perception and thus sales, just so they could say "we told you so" with the self-fulfilling prophecy. Then I remember how stupid and Apple-cult they are, so that'd be way too generous an assumption of their intelligence and forethought (lol).

Anyway, I thought I read somewhere that Windows 8 phone and Windows RT have some overlapping code base, but I can't find the source right now; if that's true, that would be good for easy porting. Though, practically speaking... even if Windows RT development stopped and no more apps were added, just having the working IE11 browser and Office covers so much (if not everything for some users like me) already.
 

jnjroach

Administrator
Staff member
Currently all of the OS's; Windows 8.x, RT, Phone 8, and Xbox One OS uses the same branch of the NT kernel (as does Server 2012 and R2). The issue is the API's, currently they share about a third of them, Phone 8.1 is supposed to bring it to 77%.
 
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