Question about RT vs Pro

[LadyRaider]

I few weeks ago I was recommending a Surface Pro to an acquaintance on another forum. He had posted his intention to buy the Pro, and he was getting lots of the usual negative reviews so I popped into defend the Pro.

I said that all the "problems" with the Surface, were really with Surface RT, not with Pro. I said the lack of apps issue was the gravest issue, but that was solved by the Pro being able to run legacy Windows apps.


Ever since then, I've been thinking I was mistaken in that. The only legacy Windows programs I'd really want to run (other than the office suite) are games like SimCity, The Sims, World of Warcraft, etc. And I have been watching how these games are played on You Tube. There's a lot of hinkyness required with usb flash drives and etc because the Pro doesn't have enough memory to handle games.

So I got to thinking that Surface Pro needs a beefed up app store as much as RT. Because even though Pro has the ability to run Windows Legacy apps, it doesn't have the storage capacity as those windows programs can be large. Pro needs Metro versions of Halo, etc.

So in a sense, I would now say that Pro's biggest advantage is it's pen. I wouldn't mention it's ability to use old apps again as an advantage over RT.

What do you guys think?

 

[kristalsoldier]

Let me put it another way, generically put, the fundamental disadvantages of the Pro are (1) weight (2) heat (3) battery life (all of these can be fixed and most likely will be fixed by MS in future iterations). The advantages of the RT are the exact opposite of the Pro. Of course, as you have already noted, the disadvantage of the RT is the inability to run legacy apps. But this is premised on the assumption of the precise role of the RT. The RT was never designed to run legacy apps. And this is where the lack of apps makes its presence felt - though this state of affairs is slowly improving. Of course, if the RT gets a pen-capability, then that would make things even better for the RT.

As for storage capacities, I think both machines were designed to be in an "always connected" mode (though, if this was indeed the intent then why did MS leave out the possibility of a data connectivity option remains a mystery - again, I expect this to be rectified in a future iteration of both machines in the form of a 3/4G/ LTE capability).

The RT has the additional advantage of being shipped with Office (though the terms of its usage are restricted, in strict legal terms). In case of the Pro, the MS design was clearly to have Pro users sign up for Office 365. Personally, I wish MS had not included Office with the RT, but had bundled an Office 356 license with it. The same should have also been done with the Pro.

As a net assessment, therefore, I would say that all things considered, the RT remains the more progressive of the two Surface offerings (though this may and probably will be contested by others). Why do I think so? Because, the RT makes a bold attempt to modify the traditional Windows usage paradigm (its still less than half-baked because a user still has to resort to the Desktop to use Office but that will also change - most likely by mid-next year when Metro version of the Office Suite are released - if the rumours on this account are to be believed).

I am quite happy with the RT, but am well aware of what some would label as its limitations.

 

[machistmo]

Well there are a host of other lagacy stuff that people buying one might want to run. AutoCad, Solidworks, Any of the MS development suites, Adobe Acrobat to say nothing of the entire line up of windows games... I am not sure what has been made available for the RT recently as I returned my devices over the last few months. The lack of apps on the RT was just one of a number of the "problems" with the RT. Price point for one, the keyboard was extra for two, the office suite didnt include outlook or at the offer any real solution for a full blown office suite, I think this still may be the case until Gemini. 8.1 will supposedly offer 'Outlook RT' but just that name worries me. What functionality MS decide to remove to make it 'RT' is anyones guess and their track reconrd with decision making is sketchy at best. The Tegra 3 chip was another detractor, except if you count the way it smoked playing shoot the zombies games, it did that pretty handily but left the Windows experience feeling a little slow and clunky, at least in my experience.

But to say there are just a few legacy apps that 'matter' is a huge leap to make... Its one that most of the rest of the world didnt make and hence the dismal performance of the RT and recent subsequent write off of $900 Million in Surface inventory. As for the Surface Pro I got tired of factory resetting it. So I created a backup image and then got tired of having to reset to that point in time over and over and over again everytime MS release a new failed firmware. Now maybe I got a bad unit, but when you add the bum unit into the mix of the reality of owning the device, no dock, the need to hook it up like Frankenstein (Power, USB and DP) to an external touch monitor, dismal battery life and other annoying hiccups, I just decided to call it a day.

The Pro's biggest advantage is NOT the pen. Its the fact that it is a full blown Windows Pro device, can be hung on a domain and managed as such, can install legacy apps, can pretty much do whatever an UltraBook can do in a smaller, lighter package. The Pen is one of those things that may or may not matter to anyone, but as a deciding factor between the RT and PRO - the PEN doesnt register.


I do miss killing the zombies... There is just something very Zen-like about mindlessly killing wave after wave of zombies and exploding fat zombies that really relaxes me...

 

[LadyRaider]

Thank you for your input. I guess I was being very self-centered. When I think of the legacy Windows apps I use the most they are all big games. Other than that it is internet and office. But I guess that is not everyone. I guess it'd be nice to be able to use google chrome and google drive, but not worth another 500.00 in price to me. That pen though... RT has the ability to use handwritten recognition in any of its apps due to the keyboard (unlike the Samsung Note 8/10 where the pen can only be used in specific apps.) That is the thing that has intrigued me most about my RT. It makes me most tempted to get a pro, and not the ability to run legacy apps. I guess that is me being self-centered again.

I just got to thinking though how clumsy apps meant for a desktop and keyboard would be and that Pro really needs that app store to become stronger as much as RT does. That the lack of metro apps DOES matter for the Pro as well as RT.

Which zombie game are you missing? My favorite mindless ios/android game is Smack Gugl. I do miss squashing those things. But I have it on my phone and still have my work-issued Ipad.

 

[machistmo]

Well currently if a pen is that important to you, you can go the ThinkPad Tablet2 route, but honestly with the recent Surface Pro price drop, I would just get it instead. Unless the .6 of a pound means that much to you, though I am quite certain the performance trade off is NOT worth the wieght savings. I will give the TPT2 its due, its about like an iPad if plastic and shoddy construction is overlooked. Also, I dont think its you being self-centered as much as it is you determining what matters to you in a tablet. If the Legacy support does not matter to you, it doesn't. Period. Thats acceptable and perfectly ok, though I think it's definately not the typical attitude of todays consumer, if the recent sales figures are considered. And again, while I think the legacy software support is big factor for many people, it is just one of a number of things that sort of doomed the RT before it got started. You can't cant get a little bit pregnant and you can't launch a device like the RT at the price point they did and expect great sales figures, you can't.

It should be noted that the ThinkPad Tabelt2's performance in games like Zombie is bad compared the Tegra3 Surface RT. The TPT2 does destroy the RT in most everything else like Windows day-to-day, metro performance and apps like Office and others that you cannot even run on the RT.

 

[machistmo]

I was playing Dredd vs Zombies and the other Zombie game that same company makes Zombie HQ or some such.

 

[machistmo]

I just got to thinking though how clumsy apps meant for a desktop and keyboard would be and that Pro really needs that app store to become stronger as much as RT does. That the lack of metro apps DOES matter for the Pro as well as RT.

The fact that the Windows Store sucked as bad as it did at launch and still sucks now (though it is improving) is pretty embarassing for Microsoft. Couple that with them FORCING Metro down your throat with Windows 8, esp on machines that didnt support touch, you begin wonder what they are smoking over there at Microsoft.

 

[demandarin]

Actually to me, the windows app store isn't as bad as people make it out to seem. Yes it could be polished up but there's still tons of apps in there. Whether metro or desktop ones. Not to mention any other app for windows you can install. I was amazed to see how many apps were in there already. Reading comments had me thinking there was hardly any..lol I'm loving my 128gb surface pro with type cover so far. I keep having to snap out of Android mentality. I don't want to use this in the exact same easy as my other tablets. Which is loading them up with apps and games till memory just about full.

Ill also add some of the games I've seen in the windows app store blow away Android or apple ones. In graphics and content. For example I purchased Halo Assault, Harvest, some really cool fighting game that looks anime style that looks like it could easily be a ps3 or xbox360 game. The graphics are reallyyyy good.

Ice just scratched the "surface" on capabilities of this device very impressed with it. So far I'm getting very good battery life actually. I just have to make sure nit to load my device up with junk or useless programs. Androids options/capabilities are nothing compared to this full blown windows device. Then I updated the HD4000 graphics drivers so I now have the control panel for it. Running great!

 

[oion]

Honestly, the app store is the absolute LAST thing about the Surface ecosystem that I care about. But I'm also a much smarter consumer than most people. I bought the Surface RT months after release, having pored over various official and user reviews, and knowing whatever limitations and differences from any extant device, it was indeed perfect for my use. And could be for so many people if Microsoft didn't royally fuck up their marketing.

The Pro's advantages are performance and legacy applications as a complete desktop replacement -- not "apps." Anyone who's still stuck on the whole app store thing is missing the big picture. It's about having a secondary devices versus primary. You expect a secondary device to be highly mobile with great battery life, and that's exactly what the SurRT delivers, but it's a productivity device, not a minigame/video viewer the way iPads are. I have a six-core gaming PC with 25" screen for stuff like MMOs. The productivity angle is why the keyboard is absolutely necessary, yet the mobile design means I can still comfortably watch video from Amazon Prime on IE. Who cares about the lack of Hulu/Youtube/whatever specialized apps? Surface RT has a full web browser that should render everything, though I wish I could install my personal browser and Irfanview. And I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned, on the Surface RT (and Pro, obviously): remote desktop.

Office is the $140 killer app on RT, and I'm glad it came bundled instead of a subscription plan because I hate constant-on checks and the idea that an office software purchase of that type can expire past usefulness (that really only makes sense for things like antiviruses). I use the advanced formatting tools in Word and Track Changes, the number-crunching and graphing abilities of Excel, and the obvious presentation mainstay, Powerpoint; nothing comes close to this sort of productivity power in the "iPad" space (iOS or Android) combined with weight and battery life. Too bad Microsoft utterly failed in the marketing department for the SurRT, because high school through grad students should have been the first hard-hit target audience. You can't target the business sector without Outlook, and they figured that out a little late, though I think the least-reviewed and called-out feature on the Surface RT was really remote desktop, which is useful for business users.

As for the Pro, I'll bet many business applications are like our legal records management software, which only take up 50MB disk space. Photoshop takes up around 1GB, AFAIR, though memory usage has no ceiling. It's up to the user to figure out what they can and can't and need to run on these things.

I do enjoy the occasional Angry Birds on my RT, but if I'm away from my gaming rig, I'm much more able to concentrate on work anyway.

 

[CrippsCorner]

Actually to me, the windows app store isn't as bad as people make it out to seem. Yes it could be polished up but there's still tons of apps in there. Whether metro or desktop ones. Not to mention any other app for windows you can install. I was amazed to see how many apps were in there already. Reading comments had me thinking there was hardly any..lol I'm loving my 128gb surface pro with type cover so far. I keep having to snap out of Android mentality. I don't want to use this in the exact same easy as my other tablets. Which is loading them up with apps and games till memory just about full.

Ill also add some of the games I've seen in the windows app store blow away Android or apple ones. In graphics and content. For example I purchased Halo Assault, Harvest, some really cool fighting game that looks anime style that looks like it could easily be a ps3 or xbox360 game. The graphics are reallyyyy good.

Ice just scratched the "surface" on capabilities of this device very impressed with it. So far I'm getting very good battery life actually. I just have to make sure nit to load my device up with junk or useless programs. Androids options/capabilities are nothing compared to this full blown windows device. Then I updated the HD4000 graphics drivers so I now have the control panel for it. Running great!

This is a problem where people believe what they read before they're really getting to use a product. I'm glad you've had the chance to put yours to the test and see what it's capable of. Must admit I've not got round to playing any games on my Surface yet, but I'm going on my first week long holiday since owning it next week so I'll download a couple and see how I get on!

Any recommendations?

 

[LadyRaider]

I've played a lot of good old Microsoft Solitaire. I also like Fruit Ninja and Cut the Rope. I played Wordament and Word Twist but I'm not improving my status in those games at all.

 

[demandarin]

This is a problem where people believe what they read before they're really getting to use a product. I'm glad you've had the chance to put yours to the test and see what it's capable of. Must admit I've not got round to playing any games on my Surface yet, but I'm going on my first week long holiday since owning it next week so I'll download a couple and see how I get on!

Any recommendations?

Halo Assault
Harvest
Hydro Thunder(new one)
Enigmatic
House of 1000 doors(puzzle/hidden object game that has great visuals and music. Enigmatis is one also)
I got those from app store.

Now if you want to get into some real deal,experimenting with high quality pc games. Download Steam into desktop mode of surface pro. From there you have a access to thousands of games. Tons of free ones in there. Also download demos and early access games(games still in de elopement that let you play what's developed so far and developers use your feedback to make it better. Once you purchase it, you get all updates, including final version at no ec
Xtra cost. Once you buy you're in.)
Sine Mora-an amazing side scrolling shooter with top notch graphics.
Sniper 2- a cod/battlefield type game where you are a sniper. Words can't describe how great it looks and plays on surface pro.
Interstellar marines- early access game that's going to be huge
Omerta City of Gangsters-a really cool simulation/strategy game. Where you a mob boss on the come up. You build your empire, etc... really good. Plays good at full resolution with graphics on highest settings also.

The pro i5 processor is powerful and you'd be amazed some of the high quality/big name pc games it can push. Of course you ctweak the graphics settings in each game to your performance liking. Steam is where its at though.

Only gripe I have is that these desktop games can be huge, file size wise. I wish, without I'll effects, that I could make use of my 64gb micro sd scxc card in my pro to Install games to. I have the 128gb surface+64gb card=192gb of storage on my pro, theoretically. The i5 plus hd 4000 graphics capable of pushing some impressive lookimg games at good/playable speeds.