I love sitting next to folks with iPads.

[kristalsoldier]

Yeah after reinstalling Windows completely, the update showed up. This device is going to be the end of me if I have to do this for every major update.

You asked for someone from MS on another thread, I believe. That suggests that you want to return/ exchange your device. Why don't you go exchange it in the standard way? It's pretty clear that your specific device does have issues given that there are others on this forum who use the same device and who are not reporting the issues that you have highlighted. Note that by saying this I am not dismissing your issues. Obviously you are dissatisfied and are justifiably exasperated.

As for the iPad and the Surface debate, essentially, I think you are correct. Each device has its strengths and weaknesses. Like, for example, I use both the iPad and the Surface 2. But I use them for different things and while each can do the task that I have dedicated to them (less the iPad in this sense and in my use-case), it would be a compromise. For example, I use my iPad (virtually) as a dedicated e-reader. Overkill? Yes, but there is one thing that works very well for me, which I have not been able to find in any other tablet - well, brand-name tablet - which warrants my use of the iPad and that is the aspect ratio and a couple of excellent reading apps. That plus the battery life make the iPad an ideal device for me. OTOH, the Surface is my go-to device for watching movies, Office-related work and browsing.

But as a matter of choice, I would not go deeper into the Apple eco-system than I already am (which is limited to a free £30 voucher that the Apple Store gave me when I originally bought my iPad 4 and which I have transferred to the iPad Air, which I now have). This is because (1) costs - whichever way you see it the TCO for Apple products is high - for me - not in the sense that I can't afford it, but because I can't see the justification for it; (2) Aside from the iPad (specifically the Air), I don't appreciate Apple's design aesthetics - in this I know I am in a minority. I guess there is no accounting for choice!

Ideally, I like the ThinkPad look, which I have been using for the longest time. I like their toughness too. I also love the keyboard. But I've had it with lugging around laptops - even ones that are slim in profile as a Carbon. Thus, my turn to tablets/ hybrid devices. In this class of devices, I find that aesthetically the Surface - specifically, the Surface 2 - appeals to me. By rights I should be using the Surface Pro version, but the weight and the thickness are its current deterrents. Thus, I am waiting to see what MS does with the third iteration of the Surface Pro.

All this to say that (1) while I think your complaints are genuine, you should seriously explore exchanging your device - again, if necessary; (2) your signature is not something that I subscribe to!; (3) I don't buy the comparisons - in terms of one is better than the other - between device-brands - they are essentially useless exercises.

 

[macmee]

You asked for someone from MS on another thread, I believe. That suggests that you want to return/ exchange your device. Why don't you go exchange it in the standard way? It's pretty clear that your specific device does have issues given that there are others on this forum who use the same device and who are not reporting the issues that you have highlighted. Note that by saying this I am not dismissing your issues. Obviously you are dissatisfied and are justifiably exasperated.

This would be my second exchange, they haven't removed the $1000 hold from the last exchange yet, I might not be here in a month (it took a long time to do the exchange last time). I do plan on doing another advanced exchange on this unit, although 1) I'll wait until the hold is gone and in the States for the Summer, otherwise I wont be here when it arrives and 2) I'd rather try to troubleshoot these problems first, before wasting time and money on another exchange.

As for the iPad and the Surface debate, essentially, I think you are correct. Each device has its strengths and weaknesses. Like, for example, I use both the iPad and the Surface 2. But I use them for different things and while each can do the task that I have dedicated to them (less the iPad in this sense and in my use-case), it would be a compromise. For example, I use my iPad (virtually) as a dedicated e-reader. Overkill? Yes, but there is one thing that works very well for me, which I have not been able to find in any other tablet - well, brand-name tablet - which warrants my use of the iPad and that is the aspect ratio and a couple of excellent reading apps. That plus the battery life make the iPad an ideal device for me. OTOH, the Surface is my go-to device for watching movies, Office-related work and browsing.

But as a matter of choice, I would not go deeper into the Apple eco-system than I already am (which is limited to a free £30 voucher that the Apple Store gave me when I originally bought my iPad 4 and which I have transferred to the iPad Air, which I now have). This is because (1) costs - whichever way you see it the TCO for Apple products is high - for me - not in the sense that I can't afford it, but because I can't see the justification for it; (2) Aside from the iPad (specifically the Air), I don't appreciate Apple's design aesthetics - in this I know I am in a minority. I guess there is no accounting for choice!

Agreed with most of this. I also have a MacBook Pro (which I think is fantastic mostly due to the great battery and giant multitouch trackpad) although these things are rather expensive. I'm likely to consider a Lenovo next, and swap Windows for Linux (big fan of W8 on tablets, not so much on a desk/laptop.

Ideally, I like the ThinkPad look, which I have been using for the longest time. I like their toughness too. I also love the keyboard. But I've had it with lugging around laptops - even ones that are slim in profile as a Carbon. Thus, my turn to tablets/ hybrid devices. In this class of devices, I find that aesthetically the Surface - specifically, the Surface 2 - appeals to me. By rights I should be using the Surface Pro version, but the weight and the thickness are its current deterrents. Thus, I am waiting to see what MS does with the third iteration of the Surface Pro.

All this to say that (1) while I think your complaints are genuine, you should seriously explore exchanging your device - again, if necessary; (2) your signature is not something that I subscribe to!; (3) I don't buy the comparisons - in terms of one is better than the other - between device-brands - they are essentially useless exercises.

Thinkpads - yep, still have an old 600e with a brilliant design.

Exchange - Already answer above but in short yes I'm still pursuing an exchange in the end, although at risk of being a broken record I believe the wisest course of action in the meantime is to post on the forum citing issues as they arise, because if avoiding an exchange is possible byway of fixing issues myself then this is desirable and 2) almost every issue I've had other people have had too (in most threads I create other people suffer the same fate, such as here) so I fully see such threads as genuine.

edit: and on about my signature: I don't think it's unfair to say that iOS is more stable than Windows. The tradeoff is that iOS does less. I think even generalized to the contents of my signature that this is a fair comparison.

 

[kristalsoldier]

I don't for a minute doubt the genuineness of your troubles/ concerns. It's just that when rancorously put, they just seem a bit jarring on what is a public forum where a wide variety of folk come to discuss their purchases, troubleshoot and/ otherwise share their experiences. But that is a personal opinion so it is pretty much irrelevant in the scheme of things.

Edit: Re: your signature. That has not been my experience. While iOS may be simpler to use, I don't think it is more or less trouble-free/ stable - at least my participation on some of the Mac/ iPad forums seems to suggest this. Also, I think - again based on my personal experience - that Linux is more problematic, or more accurately, more complex, than Windows.

 

[macmee]

I don't for a minute doubt the genuineness of your troubles/ concerns. It's just that when rancorously put, they just seem a bit jarring on what is a public forum where a wide variety of folk come to discuss their purchases, troubleshoot and/ otherwise share their experiences. But that is a personal opinion so it is pretty much irrelevant in the scheme of things.

Edit: Re: your signature. That has not been my experience. While iOS may be simpler to use, I don't think it is more or less trouble-free/ stable - at least my participation on some of the Mac/ iPad forums seems to suggest this. Also, I think - again based on my personal experience - that Linux is more problematic, or more accurately, more complex, than Windows.

If you're installing Linux on your personal machine then yes it's going to be problematic if you don't know much about the process (plus drivers. User written drivers are hard). But if you take a company like Apple who has a decade of experience catering 2 giantly popular flavours of something linux like such as iOS/OS X then I find that this is not problematic at all. iOS has its own problems yes, but if you head on over to ipadforums then there's far less problems with iOS than there is with Windows, and that's OK.

I'm also not going to try to assert that OS X is better than Windows (that's largely personal and to be evaluated on a per basis scenario), although I certainly think Apple does a superior job of creating a more stable environment than Microsoft does. This isn't a slight against Microsoft, they have a much harder and larger task of achieving high levels of stability. Their platform has to run on every laptop, desktop, tablet and toaster in the world. Apple only has to cater to 1% of users, and with their markup they still make more money than HP or Acer, despite having less sales.

I use both, hate Windows abit more, hate Apple's closed ecosystem abit more, and generally this works reasonably well for me.

 

[Nismode]

Convinced a new church that I started attending to move from their current MBP connected to a projector running OpenLP Presentation software + a whiteboard with a dry-erase marker, to my SP2 + netgear Push2TV Wireless HDMI via Miracast w/the same OpenLP software and OneNote w/digitizer pen Test run this sunday.

 

[TwiggyShip]

Convinced a new church that I started attending to move from their current MBP connected to a projector running OpenLP Presentation software + a whiteboard with a dry-erase marker, to my SP2 + netgear Push2TV Wireless HDMI via Miracast w/the same OpenLP software and OneNote w/digitizer pen Test run this sunday.

Now there's a use for Surface I hadn't thought of!

 

[f4f]

Cool story. This, to me, perfectly exemplifies the brilliance of steve job's career and legacy. He effectively convinced a massive population that apple products are the only thing out there despite obvious alternatives some of which many people might prefer.

I'm glad you were able to demonstrate the Surface at some of it's finer moments (rather than a buggy one,lol). The more people using surfaces (and windows 8.1) makes it better for us-- more apps and more improvements.

 

[macmee]

Cool story. This, to me, perfectly exemplifies the brilliance of steve job's career and legacy. He effectively convinced a massive population that apple products are the only thing out there despite obvious alternatives some of which many people might prefer.

I'm glad you were able to demonstrate the Surface at some of it's finer moments (rather than a buggy one,lol). The more people using surfaces (and windows 8.1) makes it better for us-- more apps and more improvements.

As a long time Windows Mobile and Windows CE users, when the original iPhone and iPad came out no other company had anything close to as good. Before the original iPhone the only mobile browsing was WAP, and touch screens were made for a stylus and never a finger. You seem to completely forget that there would be no Surface or modern day Windows Phone at all, if it hadn't been Apple who stole away Microsoft's marketshare, because the 2007 Microsoft "alternatives" were absolute crap.

 

[jefhart]

Alternatives to what?

 

[macmee]

Alternatives to what?

I presume he meant to say that the Surface is a good alternative to an iPad in 2014. Where he went astray was in assuming that there were always alternatives, when historically Microsoft was incredibly late to the party.

 

[Korlon]

As a long time Windows Mobile and Windows CE users, when the original iPhone and iPad came out no other company had anything close to as good. Before the original iPhone the only mobile browsing was WAP, and touch screens were made for a stylus and never a finger. You seem to completely forget that there would be no Surface or modern day Windows Phone at all, if it hadn't been Apple who stole away Microsoft's marketshare, because the 2007 Microsoft "alternatives" were absolute crap.

I wouldn't give apple all that credit, but they did add a competitive influence to push smartphone makers. I don't think MS had anything in the marketplace at all. It was all Blackberry at the time with a smattering of other negligible devices. I do agree that before the iPhone web surfing on smartphones was absolute crap, remembering my blackberry whose contribution was that trackball and tiny track pad and although both were marked improvements to scroll toggle switches that's not saying much as improving from a 'crap' situation doesn't take much innovation. However I still have fond memories of my Palm phone whose touch screen I thought was fantastic. Could use my fingers or that tiny stick they called a stylus.

 

[macmee]

I wouldn't give apple all that credit, but they did add a competitive influence to push smartphone makers. I don't think MS had anything in the marketplace at all. It was all Blackberry at the time with a smattering of other negligible devices. I do agree that before the iPhone web surfing on smartphones was absolute crap, remembering my blackberry whose contribution was that trackball and tiny track pad and although both were marked improvements to scroll toggle switches that's not saying much as improving from a 'crap' situation doesn't take much innovation. However I still have fond memories of my Palm phone whose touch screen I thought was fantastic. Could use my fingers or that tiny stick they called a stylus.

Microsoft was bigger than blackberry in the smartphone market. They had over 40% of the market at their peak. Here's a small graph:



You can imagine that they kept going down as well. They were huge with Windows Mobile on phones and Windows CE on embedded devices (well technically WM was a specific flavour of CE).

Apple did revolutionize the smartphone and tablet industry. Before them nobody had comparable touch screens, mobile web browsers or built in app catalogs. The Palm m150 and Jordana 720 were great Palm and Windows CE devices for their day, but when Apple came along they completely blew Microsoft, Palm and BlackBerry out of the water (not to mention Symbian).

Microsoft took a looong time playing catchup, but I think they've done well. A year from now, some bug fixes and 6 billion more dollars a year into marketing for WP and W8 and Microsoft will likely have a decent chunk of marketshare gained. It will take a longer time for them to do well in the smartphone market than it will the tablet market though.